fhsshorts
Subj: [FLTEACH] Shorts in Europe
Date: 5/20/00 5:56:30 AM Pacific Daylight Time
From: young-m@JUNO.COM (Mary Young)
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I think I have convinced the girls in my group that they shouldn't wear
shorts in Paris. What is protocol as far as shorts elsewhere?

Also, what are guidelines for boys and shorts?

Thanks very much.

Mary

California USA
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Subj: Re: [FLTEACH] Shorts in Europe
Date: 5/20/00 10:42:05 AM Pacific Daylight Time
From: josettegrimsley@YAHOO.COM (Josette Grimsley)
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I just got back from London, Paris, Madrid & Rome.
We saw no shorts in the big cities. If the students
want to blend in with the locals, they should leave
the bright colors at home. They will be treated much
better in the restaurants and shops. Jeans are okay.
It is still a little chillier over there. Think Maine
climate.
Bon voyage!


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Subj: Re: [FLTEACH] Shorts in Europe
Date: 5/20/00 10:44:48 AM Pacific Daylight Time
From: SRDSHELLY@AOL.COM (Dave Shelly)
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Hi!

Maybe you're only addressing France, but the subject line is Europe, so I'll
comment. In Spain I tell the kids to dress for comfort. If it's 90 degrees
everybody in the group is likely to wear shorts (or perhaps a short dress),
including me (the shorts, not the dress). If it's 60 degrees, nobody will
want to wear shorts.

European countries are visited by millions and millions of people every year,
and tourism is a cornerstone to their economies. People don't care if Swedes
dress like Swedes, Peruvians dress like Peruvians, Japanese dress like
Japanese, and Americans dress like Americans. One could almost by this time
make a case that to say otherwise, no matter how well intentionedly, is to
perpetuate to students a cultural concept that really doesn't apply anymore.
Spain is the European country most visited by other Europeans, and between
all the visitors and the local population, just about any type of attire one
could imagine is worn.

We travel on our own, but did buy a one-day tour to Morocco. I assumed we
wouldn't be able to wear shorts in a Muslim country, but when I asked, the
tour operator laughed and said people take this tour every day and most of
them wear shorts. Of course you'll be identified as tourists. So what? Do you
think your group won't be identified as tourists, no matter what they're
wearing? In a Muslim country I would continue to be reluctant to wear shorts
if not on that type of guided tour.

I think that for the most part the idea that Europeans would be somehow
offended by the sight of people in shorts is out of date. Occasionally it
will trigger the whistle or piropo, but the students know about that, and
laugh it off. Perhaps some very rural villages which are not accustomed to
seeing tourists would be different, but I doubt it, and in the major cities
I would not hesitate to wear shorts or permit students to choose to do so if
the weather says it makes sense.

Dave Shelly
srdshelly@aol.com
Wichita (Kan.) High School East



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Subj: [FLTEACH] shorts in Europe
Date: 5/20/00 12:59:49 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: hepburnclau@WANADOO.FR (hepburnclau)
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In reply to Mary : I was in Paris a fortnight ago and there were lots of shorts
around, particularly on American girls! I may disappoint you, but Paris is not
the elegant place it once was. I hasten to say American tourists are not to
blame any more than French tourists. The temptation is great, when you are sure
not to meet anyone you know, to dress casually. It is what I did (bar the
shorts!). To see elegant people you must move around Place de la Madeleine,
Place Vendôme, Avenue Montaigne etc..I actually saw tourists in Notre-Dame
wearing shorts and that is definitely wrong IMO. Another shocking sight, which I
hope you will be spared, was Place des Vosges littered (the word is fiiting)
with half naked people sprawled on the central lawns. This is acceptable in
large parks but in that secluded, meant-to-be-magic square it looked horrid and
I quickly retreated.

Still, I envy you, Paris is super! Bon séjour!

CLAU



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Subj: Re: [FLTEACH] Shorts in Europe
Date: 5/20/00 1:00:19 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: Prov678267@AOL.COM (Bunny Rubenstein)
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In a message dated 5/20/00 10:44:16 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
SRDSHELLY@AOL.COM writes:

<< Of course you'll be identified as tourists. So what? Do you
think your group won't be identified as tourists, no matter what they're
wearing? >>

Dave, my experience, on the contrary, is that, at least in France, people do
not wear shorts. As far as being identified as a tourist is concerned, one
gets better treatment acting in Rome as the Romans do (or in France as the
French....) than acting like Americans who don't care about local customs.
If you don't care how you look and how you are treated, then it does not
matter. It is not passé in France.

Bunny Rubenstein
Prov678267@aol.com


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Subj: [FLTEACH] shorts...in France
Date: 5/20/00 1:01:24 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: young-m@JUNO.COM (Mary Young)
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Had a meeting this a.m. and more questions came up.

If girls shouldn't wear shorts in the city, can they wear short skirts?
We're talking about Paris, mainly. Also Geneva.

And boys in shorts? Any limitations?

Also, a friend of one of the women was told not to wear white
sports/walking shoes in Italy, that it would make her stand out as a
tourist and that it isn't done there. Is that true in France and
Switzerland?

Do you still need to have your shoulders covered (not your head) in
churches?

Anything else about the way to dress? It's been a while.

Thanks!

Mary

California USA


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Subj: Re: [FLTEACH] Shorts in Europe
Date: 5/21/00 5:17:02 AM Pacific Daylight Time
From: SpanteachNJ@AOL.COM (Dana Pilla)
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I think they can wear shorts in Paris! Girls there generally wear skirts or
pants, but what's the big deal? Everyone's going to know they're American
anyway.


Dana Pilla
Edison High School
50 Boulevard of the Eagles
Edison, NJ 08817



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Subj: Re: [FLTEACH] Shorts in Europe, should be France
Date: 5/21/00 5:19:46 AM Pacific Daylight Time
From: young-m@JUNO.COM (Mary Young)
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On Sat, 20 May 2000 12:36:55 EDT Dave Shelly writes:

>Maybe you're only addressing France, but the subject line is Europe,
>so I'll comment. ...
>I think that for the most part the idea that Europeans would be
>somehow
>offended by the sight of people in shorts is out of date.

Thanks, Dave, for your perspective on this. The incident with my student
did happen many years ago. (Shorts, Paris, made it as far as 2 metro
stops before she was so humiliated we had to go back so she could
change.) I don't know how much has changed since then because I have
been very careful and conservative after that. Then, there were the
women Rome who leaned out the window to yell at our girls who were
wearing shorts, waiting for the bus to take us to Pompeii...

But I should have specified, this is France, and that's why it matters.

Given the reputation for rudeness the French have been given by
tourists, I am trying to help kids have a good experience with French
people. As a result I am reminding them that we (as tourists) are sort
of intruding on people's lives -- where they live, work, have good days
and bad. Too often tourists go in expecting Paris or Rome to be there
for our entertainment, like Disneyland, with everybody catering to our
whims because we are on vacation. I want them to go into this experience
sensitive to the culture we are visiting, realizing we are [uninvited]
guests in someone's "home."

Sounds like a huge guilt trip the way I describe it here, and that's not
the case. I don't make a big deal about it, I just want them to be
sensitive, and realize we are going into another culture with a different
view of some things.

Mary

California USA



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Subj: Re: [FLTEACH] Shorts in Europe
Date: 5/21/00 5:20:16 AM Pacific Daylight Time
From: AEhmsen@AOL.COM (Anita Ehmsen)
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I disagree. I lived in France for two years and wore shorts often in Paris.
I allow my students to wear shorts as well. Some of the shorts they wear are
much longer than the skirts.

aehmsen@aol.com


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Subj: Re: [FLTEACH] Shorts in Europe
Date: 5/21/00 5:20:53 AM Pacific Daylight Time
From: SRDSHELLY@AOL.COM (Dave Shelly)
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Hi!

This would depend on where you are and for what purpose. When my students and
I spent the night with host families in a squatter village by the railroad
tracks outside San Salvador we were most careful to dress in a manner that
would be respectful to local sensibilities. Likewise when we spent the night
with host refugee families in a U.N. camp in Honduras.

But if we're going to major tourist attractions in cosmopolitan cities where
people are fully used to a world of visitors with greatly varying customs,
where dealing with tourists is an important everyday business, and where many
others among the visitors are dressed in a wide array of styles, the issues
aren't the same. Certainly we dress much more carefully if we're planning to
go to a nice restaurant or evening cultural event where such attire is
expected.

Dave Shelly


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Subj: [FLTEACH] shorts and shoes in Europe
Date: 5/21/00 5:25:17 AM Pacific Daylight Time
From: hepburnclau@WANADOO.FR (hepburnclau)
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As a native of the old continent, I find it both touching and surprising that
visitors should worry about how to dress and how not to upset their host
country. Very commendable of course.
However, "l'habit ne fait pas le moine" and the most important remains what is
inside the dress: respect of
people's living space in other words, good manners. We have a lot of Spanish
people crossing the border to shop in Biarritz or Bayonne. The ladies are
beautifully dressed and groomed, the men are fragrant with eau de cologne and
have got sparkling shoes. But they move around supermarkets in large , noisy
flocks, blocking the path for other shoppers, their uncontrolled kids shouting
and running about, bumping into you without any apologies . On the beaches,
their behaviour is just as obnoxious and can ruin their neighbours' afternoon.
So, shorts , sport shoes for everyone, plus discretion, respect of people within
hearing distance, an abundance of mercis, s'il vous plait, excusez-moi, avec
plaisir and lots of the typical gorgeous American smiles: that's the winning
recipe. You will be forgiven your tourist look!

CLAU


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Subj: Re: [FLTEACH] What to wear in Europe
Date: 5/21/00 5:48:24 AM Pacific Daylight Time
From: pamoore@CITYNET.NET (Pamela A. Moore)
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Queridos Listeros,
While reading the "notes" about "to shorts or not to shorts" in
Europe, I was conversing with a friend in Belguim (who is well-traveled
in the US as well) about my planned "The Best of Spain and Portugal."
So I ask his opinion and they are as follows:

"well.. Paris is just part of Europe and not that different from
other places.. but we all know what Americans look like.. so just be
yourself.. Europeans are no exotic race and most of them are less prude
than Americans.. so no danger for that.. Just take care in Africa.."

"We know American women wear alot of shorts.. and we don't always
find that tasteful.. don't wear them in Morocco.. it is Islamic country
there.. but in Spain.. around the coast.. you will see so many tourists
from Belgium, Germany etc; and they wear far less.."

Just my two cents and one European's opinion.

Vaya con Dios.
Buen Viaje.
Pam
pamoore@citynet.net

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Subj: Re: [FLTEACH] Shorts and other behavior (long)
Date: 5/21/00 7:55:33 AM Pacific Daylight Time
From: nmcdonald@HOME.COM (Nikki McDonald)
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At 01:59 PM 5/20/00 -0700, Mary Young wrote:
"Too often tourists go in expecting Paris or Rome to be there for our
entertainment, like Disneyland, with everybody catering to our whims
because we are on vacation. I want them to go into this experience
sensitive to the culture we are visiting, realizing we are [uninvited]
guests in someone's "home." . . . I just want them to be sensitive, and
realize we are going into another culture with a different view of some
things."

Nicely said, Mary. Trust your instincts and you and your students will be
fine.

I'll weigh in on the "conservative" and "old-fashioned" side of this
discussion--though I have found something to agree with in almost every
post so far, including those who say you see EVERY kind of dress in Paris.
How true. This is one of those "yes, but . . . " issues.

I'm taking my 5th group (all-girls school) in 10 years to France this
summer. Each year we spend more time at our pre-departure meetings (20-25
minutes/week from late January on) discussing appropriate behavior, of
which dress is but one aspect. We discuss sound bubbles and personal space
needs and customer/client relationships and "just looking" in boutiques and
. . . Little by little they come to understand what I am trying to say.
Everyone is a member of many groups about which others have stereotypes.
They are teens, young ladies, Americans and tourists. There's nothing
wrong with being any of those. I just want them to be the best example of
a teen, a young lady, an American, a tourist that they can possibly be.

As for the shorts issue, I now say "dresses or skirts or pants (including
jeans)--period" for Paris (London, Amsterdam, etc.). Skirt length is not
important. In my opinion, the shorts issue is not one of skimpiness but
rather one of appropriateness; and between my idea of appropriate and my
students', there is a gulf of more years than I care to admit.

In the past I have said, "walking shorts only, no short shorts or
cut-offs." I got what looked like cut-offs to me, only to be told they had
been purchased that way and "cut-offs" had to be literally re-fashioned
jeans. I got boxers--those did not leave the hotel lobby! I got what
looked like the bottom of a bathing suit: skirt in front and fanny-skimming
shorts in back--a "skort, not shorts" I was told. I got shorts in the
dining room of a VERY nice London hotel on a rainy evening when the
temperatures couldn't have been above 45 degrees. And, just two years ago,
I had two students who wore shorts for an evening excursion to the
Champs-Elysees. One had come to me to be "checked" (her idea, not mine)
with plenty of time to change. Frankly, she looked great: khaki walking
shorts, a crisp white blouse, a lightweight black blazer--something like
that. I said fine. When we gathered in the lobby, I noticed that her
roommate had on shorts, too, and her outfit was not fine. I honestly did
not know how--nor did I want--to tell her she looked ridiculous, so I said
nothing. Two hours later she said something to me. "You were right,
Madame. No one was wearing shorts and I felt so silly, I just wished we
would come back to the hotel."

The bottom line (no pun intended) for me is, as others have stated, that
students who are sensitive to others around them are more likely to dress
and behave appropriately. Those students will be taken more seriously and
will have a much better experience wherever they are than will those who
are not and do not. I have no problem trying to nudge them a little in
this direction.

Nikki
nmcdonald@home.com



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Subj: Re: [FLTEACH] Shorts in Europe, should be France
Date: 5/21/00 9:56:51 AM Pacific Daylight Time
From: Toqmeister@AOL.COM (INDEX Francis Hult)
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Aside from what anyone encourages their students to wear abroad (I have
traveled throughout many corners of the globe wearing everything from a tunic
to a T-shirt and cut-offs) I think it would be worthwhile to encourage
students to observe the people around them, find out what they're wearing,
doing, listening to, etc. You will find that there is a great deal of
diversity in any large city and it might be useful to help students become
aware of this. Let's not forget that dress, in any social group, is a
function of identity. Travel abroad is a wonderful experience that will help
many students understand this. To watch how people in other parts of the
world construct their identities through clothing, music, etc. will surely
help each student understand their own identity a little bit better. This, I
think, should be an integral part of the curriculum for any study abroad
program/trip.

Francis Hult
New York University


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Subj: Re: [FLTEACH] Shorts in Europe
Date: 5/21/00 10:08:20 AM Pacific Daylight Time
From: thoscorcoran@HOTMAIL.COM (Thomas Corcoran)
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Regarding shorts/clothing customs in Europe.

Just returned from a short trip to Europe with my students. Shorts were found
everywhere.(Czech rep. Italy, Germany, Slovenia). Back in Sweden it is very
common for women to walk around in their bras when the weather is appropriate.
At the beaches bathing attire is "up to you". Doctors, teachers and lawyers wear
only blue jeans. Of course if you live in Stockholm you must wear only black or
metallic grey colours. Can say really the only comment Americans get in Sweden is
about their size and cheapness of apparel. Fashionable folk in shorts would be
looked favourably upon.

Tompan
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Subj: Re: [FLTEACH] Shorts in Europe
Date: 5/21/00 1:06:44 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: mdblaz@FREEWWWEB.COM (Deborah & Michael Blaz)
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Two summers ago, my students wearing shorts were NOT allowed in the following places:
Harrod's in London
the Oceanographic Museum and cathedral in Monaco
and one of the restaurants we were to go to.

Most of them had, as per my instructions, stuffed some pants in their carryon and pulled
them on over the shorts; the others were stuck outside waiting for the group. At the
restaurant, the guide got the owners to allow them to enter with a jacket tied around their
waists, in the middle of our group...and I really chewed them out, you better believe it!
This year I have threatened them with the above information and really hope they listen
to me and only pack, at most, one pair of shorts.

Especially in Italy, shorts in churches are not allowed. They are a lot stricter in Italy
about this. However, short skirts don't seem to upset anyone.....don't ask me why.

I tell the kids they can wear shorts when we will spend most of the day on a bus, or go to
the beach, but I always tell them to have a "Plan B" or suffer the consequences.

Deborah Blaz *
mdblaz@freewwweb.com or
blazm@yahoo.com
*not forgetting Camille the Border Collie

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Subj: Re: [FLTEACH] shorts...in France
Date: 5/22/00 5:23:05 AM Pacific Daylight Time
From: bwatkins@RADIKS.NET (Bryan L. Watkins)
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>Had a meeting this a.m. and more questions came up.
>
>If girls shouldn't wear shorts in the city, can they wear short skirts?
>We're talking about Paris, mainly. Also Geneva.
>
>And boys in shorts? Any limitations?
>
Dear all,

It's been my experience that shorts are not worn in town. People wear
shorts at the beach and that is basically it. Also, warm-up suits are only
for going to or coming from the gym.

>Also, a friend of one of the women was told not to wear white
>sports/walking shoes in Italy, that it would make her stand out as a
>tourist and that it isn't done there. Is that true in France and
>Switzerland?
>
I think that anything bright and/or flashy will stand out.

>Do you still need to have your shoulders covered (not your head) in
>churches?
>
>Anything else about the way to dress? It's been a while.
>
In France, people like to dress well and if that means wearing a sweater
tied around your neck when it's 85 degrees out, so be it.

I hope that I've been of some help.

>Thanks!
>
>Mary
>
>California USA


Bryan L. WATKINS
French teacher
Burke High School
Omaha, Nebraska

President, Nebraska Chapter
American Association of Teachers of French

[mailto:bwatkins@radiks.net]
http://www.radiks.net/~bwatkins/

Voice: 402-672-6559
Fax: 402-330-9823


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Subj: [FLTEACH] Shorts and the house that Jacques built
Date: 5/22/00 11:40:49 AM Pacific Daylight Time
From: teachorr@YAHOO.COM (Suzette Orr)
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Here is the version I have from a fellow French teacher

LA MAISON QUE JACQUES A CONTRUITE

Voici la maison que Jacques a contruite.
Voici le fromage qui a été laissé dans...
Voici le rat qui a mangé ...
Voici le chat qui a attrape...
Voici le chien qui a chassé...
Voici la vache qui a encorné....
Voici la fille qui a traité...
Voici le garçon qui a embrassé....
Voici le curé qui a terminé l'histoire en mariant le garcon avec
la fille qui...

The last part of each line is then repeated;

At to shorts in France - the big deal I make when I take my
students is that for their own comfort they do not want to be an
object of stares. The real issue is short shorts which are not
so much in style now. THe longer shorts are not a big problem
but I do stress that they should dress for the itinerary. If we
are visiting cathedrals and museums that calls for move coverage
than if we are in the caves at Lascaux. Modesty is not a term
some of my students are familiar with and I teach parochial
students. It's a concept we work on.

=====
Suzette Orr
Bishop Dwenger High School
Fort Wayne In
teachorr@yahoo.com

To have another language is to possess a second soul.
Charlemagne
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Subj: [FLTEACH] shorts in Paris- a French person's opinion
Date: 5/27/00 4:29:55 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: AEhmsen@AOL.COM (Anita Ehmsen)
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Planning a trip soon and seeing all the comments on the listserv, I decided
to contact my French friend who just returned to Paris after living inthe US
for 4 years- she's 40- here's her take on it-

Ah, les americains en short !...
Je crois qu'il suffit de s'entendre sur la longueur du short.
Un short au dessus du genou (style bermuda) serait OK meme pour rentrer dans
Notre Dame - apres tout les touristes sont bien en short l'ete - mais peut
etre pas un short très court a ras les fesses (excuse my French) : ce serait
jugé provocant.
Cependant, il faut garder a l'esprit que les francais en ville ne
s'habillent pas aussi "casual" que les américains surtout les parisiens
(parisiennes).

Anita Ehmsen
avec l'aide du Pascale
Last updated  2008/09/28 03:18:46 EDTHits  568